A Conversation with Alan R. Crain, Jr.
Independent Arbitrator
Former Senior Vice President, Chief Legal and Governance Officer of Baker Hughes (Houston)

Interviewed by Professor Catherine A. Rogers
Vice Chair, Academic Council Università Bocconi (Milan) and Queen Mary University of London (London)

This interview is the latest in a series organized by the ITA Academic Council to record the evolution of modern international arbitration in the words of those who have led it.

[AI Transcript]

[00:00:00] So good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the luncheon for the 11th I. T. A. I. E. L. I. C. Joint Conference on international energy arbitration here in Houston for the first time in person since 2020.

[00:00:30] It's so exciting to see such a large crowd back with us in person here. We have packed this room, so this is great. Thanks so much to each of you for making the journey to Houston to be here with us. I am Victoria Sahani, the Associate Provost for Community and Inclusion and a Professor of Law at Boston University, and I have the honor and privilege of serving as Chair of the Academic Council of the Institute for Transnational Arbitration.

[00:00:58] I previously chaired the ITA [00:01:00] Academic Council's interview project, Preserving Perspectives, International Arbitrators in Their Own Words. And I want to recognize the current chair of the Preserving Perspectives Project and Vice Chair of the Academic Council, Professor Karina Baltogh. For her important work on this interview and on the series as a whole.

[00:01:23] I also want to thank the members of the Preserving Perspectives Project Committee, Professor Catherine Titi, and Professor Muhammad Abdel Wahhab. I'm not sure if they're here, but thank them as well. I also want to thank the chair of the ITA, Tom Sikora. Thank you, Tom, and the ITA staff.

[00:01:43] And the ITA staff led by David Nguyen, whom we missed. seeing here in person, but I know he is joining us virtually for helping to bring this lunch and interview to fruition. Yes. Yay, David.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] I also would like to thank ITA's partners in organizing today's conference, the Institute for Energy Law of the Center for American and International Law, and the ICC International Court of Arbitration.

[00:02:16] The ITA Academic Council's interview project, Preserving Perspectives, International Arbitrators, in their own words, is that important and wholly unique among projects hosted by various international arbitrations worldwide. We interview prominent international arbitrators and record the stories of their lives and careers as they themselves tell it.

[00:02:37] Afterward, the videos of these interviews are memorialized forever on the ITA's website, so that future generations of international arbitration practitioners can watch and learn from them. I am so pleased to introduce today's interview of Alan Crane by Professor Catherine Rogers, Vice Chair of the Academic Council and Professor of Law at Bocconi School of Law in Milan.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] We are tremendously grateful to Alan for having agreed to be interviewed as part of this project and to Catherine for agreeing to serve as his interviewer. We very much look forward to their conversation. Now without further ado, the Academic Council of the Institute for Transnational Arbitration is pleased to present our Preserving Perspectives project interview of Alan Crane, interviewed by Professor Catherine Rogers of the Bocconi School of Law in Milan.

[00:03:33] Thank you for such a kind introduction. I also want to thank everyone who I've met who said to me, Oh, I can't wait for this interview of Alan. He, of course, has many fans in the audience, and I told anyone who did say that to me I know you think you know Alan but we are going to reveal all sorts of interesting things in this interview that I don't think you do know.

[00:03:55] With that, as a teaser I'm sorry. As a, someone who [00:04:00] supports international arbitration, and the rules of international arbitration, I've always been a big supporter of no document discovery. But each side is required to present the documents to the other side well in advance of the hearing. I have been handed this.

[00:04:17] I have not had a chance to study it. I have not had a chance to respond. I know you can't appeal most arbitrations, thank goodness. So I guess I'm Stuck indeed, but in a good way. As with so many interviews, we'll generally proceed chronologically. But as I was doing research for this, I did come across a number of themes, I think, that really animate and explain Alan's both personal and professional background.

[00:04:44] So we are also organized, excuse me, around themes. But we will start rather chronologically at the beginning. So the first theme we're going to look at is responsibility. I think anyone who knows Alan [00:05:00] will understand that he treats every activity he engages in with a dedication and a responsibility.

[00:05:06] That's really always admirable. But maybe you don't know how early. So now, when I first saw this picture, I thought, this really gives a new sense of shotgun wed it's the idea of a shotgun wedding. Especially because she looks older than him, right? But maybe, as I understand, that you were not, in fact, a very young groom in this picture.

[00:05:29] That's true. The beautiful young girl there is my sister, my older sister. who, that's the kindest she treated me throughout our entire childhood. No, she was wonderful. I think that must have been my cousin Barbara's wedding and she's 88 and got married at 21. So I remember that vividly and I was the ring bearer.

[00:05:50] And I also remember staring at that ring to be sure I didn't lose it going down the way and then checking on the way back to be sure. They'd actually gotten it off the pillow because I [00:06:00]wasn't remembering much of the time. I think I was four, four, four, as you say at that age, four and a half. Continuing in the theme of responsibility, I also understand that your sense of responsibility had you working in enforcing the rule of law from a very young age as a student traffic guard.

[00:06:19] Although it was hard to obtain this picture we're hoping you could give us a little more understanding of what it is in the picture. I'd like to object to this picture because I'm not in it. There, there are many pictures of me. As the captain of patrol boys. It was all boys. It was the age of the dark ages.

[00:06:36] I'm not in that because that's just the fifth graders when I was the sixth grade. And I, the height of success at my elementary school, I went to public schools in Washington D. C. as did my father and grandfather. But the height of success in elementary school was to become the captain of the patrol boys.

[00:06:51] And the this is an appropriate photograph in the sense that's Edna K. Dodge, Mrs. Dodge. who always drove a Dodge that looked like a tank in those [00:07:00] days, in the 50s, they looked like tanks. But she was wonderful. I, you can see this is when she's happy.

[00:07:09] I've never been afraid of any CEOs, any alternative, any counsel on the other side. Because I, Mrs. Dodge was wonderful. And actually, I can name all the teachers that I had throughout all of my public education, and I had so many wonderful teachers. Today, I suspect Mrs. Dodge would run a hedge fund at me takeover companies on a hostile takeover basis.

[00:07:33] But I was very fortunate that the archaic times meant that people like Mrs. Dodge, my mother, who became a nurse, she became, Mrs. Dodge became a teacher, that they were restricted. People with great skills were restricted, and thank goodness that's not the case, at least in the United States today.

[00:07:50] So the other thing I want to, excuse me, use this slide to highlight is that you were a product of public schools in D. C. And my understanding is actually that had [00:08:00] an effect on you and your kind of outlook in the world and also your personal and professional development. Could you tell us a little bit about public schools in D.

[00:08:07] C. at the time? In the time I was in the elementary school, we didn't have as much diversity as we did once I got to junior high school. And by high school and I went to my 50th reunion. I know you can't believe it. Recently, and it was great to see that, the diversity and the people who came back to the reunion, it was just as diverse as it was to see people.

[00:08:28] I actually hadn't seen much of those people in 50 years. And so I had the great benefit of actually going to school with people. Who were Washingtonian diverse in the sense of those of us who have been there for generations and stay. But also we had I had a girlfriend in fourth grade and she left me.

[00:08:47] How could that be? She went to Ghana because her father was a DCM, appointed DCM at the embassy there, deputy chief of mission. And then she came back when we were in junior high school. But we had people from all, all walks of life. One of the [00:09:00] graduates to my high school recently visited. Junior high school.

[00:09:03] We both went to and the high school was carried in our newspaper from the school was Warren Buffett. His father was a congressman with lots of people don't know, and he spent a lot of his formative years in the same two schools I did. I still don't know what course he took that I didn't get to take.

[00:09:18] But also a few years before me, one of my favorite groups I am of that genre age wise was Jefferson Airplane and some of the members of Jefferson Airplane went there too. But I haven't done well investing, and you really don't want to hear me sing or try and play an instrument. That does sound very groovy though.

[00:09:39] Let's see. So our next theme, moving on is that also you have, and had from a very young age, really a global outlook on the world. Excuse me, and the sort of indication of that from your early age is this picture. Which I think is a passport from your very first travel abroad. You were so [00:10:00] young that you did not actually have your own passport.

[00:10:02] You were essentially on your parents passport. Could you tell us a little bit about this trip and how it has affected your development? I just want you to know, while we didn't have a lot of money, even though it appears I'm wearing the same thing I was, Five and a half years earlier? It was at least a different jacket.

[00:10:21] My understanding at the time, at least it was explained to me, whether it was accurate or not, by my father that you have, we just have one passport, because if you're under a certain age you have to be on the passport. My father and mother both had traveled a lot, but in connection with being in World War II.

[00:10:38] She was a nurse in World War II, and he was a doctor stationed in the Pacific. which was very hard on Max actually, given what he had to do every day. But in 1961 his older brother was also a doctor who was stationed in Manila and the, and he was in the army, not the Navy. Convinced my father to take the two of us, my mother and my younger brother who [00:11:00] had some health problems at the time couldn't go.

[00:11:03] And we went on this wonderful trip and we went to, you put those little stamps in there. I don't think those were in my passport, but maybe I don't think so. We did go to London and we went all the way to Rome where my father spoke. He didn't usually do that. He did though, about every other year, go to various countries around the world at his own expense, and maybe that's one reason he didn't make as much money as many other orthopedic surgeons, at his own expense to give medical services when he was in his most, when he was between 20 and 30 years is when you're at your highest success, but they gave me an orientation towards the international and very much wanted to be a part of things international. It seemed to me when I was doing my research that your father's example also in part inspired what my next theme is. I'm going to call it a public service orientation, which I think many of you in the audience who know Alan will probably readily agree.

[00:11:58] But in addition to your father [00:12:00] and his work around the world as a doctor, I also understand you might have had another source of inspiration for public service. I don't know, excuse me, how you ended up with a signed picture from the president who started the Peace Corps, but I'm wondering if you could tell us about this and also to some extent if it is part of your orientation to public service.

[00:12:22] President Kennedy, of course, was an inspiration to millions of people and short lived. I must say that, that photograph, I never got to meet President Kennedy. There are photographs of me with other presidents as an adult. I found them. But, oh, okay. But, I have to look through the rest of these.

[00:12:38] But I never got to meet President Kennedy. And actually this was just because a friend of the family worked directly for him in a very critical personal role. I mean you can look at the, you can look at my bad hair. And you can look at his very good hair. His barber was a friend of my mother, one of the patients where she worked.

[00:12:56] And so one day this came from the White House, and you can see the word, regards[00:13:00] is smudged, because when I opened it, I couldn't believe it. And I thought, is that real? And I smudged the ink myself. And thank you for bringing that to mind, because I still feel bad about it. But anyway, but he was a great inspiration.

[00:13:13] But my, everybody, my, my mother my aunts and uncles, they, I had an uncle who, on my father's side, his sister, who was dean of the school of education, I think they called it, George Washington University in D. C., and the State Department asked him to go to Korea to help reform the education system in Korea after the Korean War and how destitute they were at my church.

[00:13:35] We had pen pals there and we sponsored children in the whole orphanage. So they went over there and I remember vividly in 1989 when one of my cousins got married. My father and my uncle and the uncle who'd gone all over my father and the other uncle got him in between them and said, remember when you went 20 years ago, 25 years ago, whatever it was, to a quarter century ago to Korea and [00:14:00] help reform the education system?

[00:14:02] You overdid it. They're killing us. They're doing so well. They're just killing the whole U. S. market, which was, a joke and obviously a. It made him very proud because he had so many friends from Korea in the time he spent in Korea that would come visit him in the U. S. Great. So those are the sort of seeds of your public service orientation.

[00:14:23] But can you tell us a little bit more specifically, most of us know you here as a lawyer. How did you actually decide to become a lawyer? I think I thought for many years I'd be a surgeon like my father. And and I actually I'm sure this was against all rules. He actually had me come watch him do a total hip replacement.

[00:14:43] And over the years I actually watched too. And my father wasn't big on rules in many ways. So I just showed up, scrubbed up with him, put the stuff on, stood behind him, wiped his brow. I don't think you're allowed to do that at the time. I didn't think much about it. But as I growing up in Washington, [00:15:00] DC, and I looked around and the people were doing interesting things were lawyers.

[00:15:04] but really formed when I was in high school. I love science, so I love physics in particular, but I loved all the sciences. So I decided what I want to do is learn and really understand science. But I wanted to be a lawyer and I want to be involved in business. So I went to where my uncle ran a school dean of education.

[00:15:24] And suggested I go undergraduate, which is a place called Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. So I have been institutionalized. Some people always wonder that question and study engineering there. I was in a five year program which I actually completed in four years for bachelor's and master's.

[00:15:37] I went to law school at Syracuse where the president went, actually the current president and was in an MBA JD program, which was a four year program, which I did in three years. And many people say, Oh, you must be so smart. You did seven years. What should have taken you nine or ten? I said, I'm just really...

[00:15:56] parsimonious, a nice word for cheap. And I was able to do it [00:16:00] more quickly and that was beneficial all around. Yeah. Cheap was not going to be one of my themes, but another thing that we do, I think, see, and I didn't put on a slide is efficiency and efficacy certainly in your education to become a lawyer, the master's in engineering is in management engineering, which is all about efficiency and effectiveness.

[00:16:18] You've got to get the right outcome. It's just like the law. You've got to get the right outcome and arbitrations. Being efficient isn't great. If you come to the wrong decision. Okay so I'm going to piggyback a little bit on these themes as well, and now say whatever the source of inspiration with JFK and whatnot, now you're a lawyer you've in a sense combined a lot of what we've been talking about as well to engage in extensive human rights work throughout your career, but many people might not know how far back it goes.

[00:16:45] And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about over the years your work in human rights. I've In doing the arbitrations, particularly when I was employed by companies, I'd only do one a year, but because of how I came to arbitration, maybe I'll talk about that later, but anyway, [00:17:00] I guess the first time I was actually actively involved, not just contributing money, was having met Ken Roth, who ran Human Rights Watch, he just stopped after many years, I think this past summer, and going to Washington at his request, going to Washington on these education days where you go up and meet with congressmen.

[00:17:18] Congressman and women and talk about human rights legislation that's there, just educating people, not lobbying. I've never registered as a lobbyist which was important since I ran government relations. And anyway, and then later I became friends with Jerry Shestak through an interesting set. And he'd been president of the ABA, but he had been ambassador to the United Nations for the commission on human rights and really cared about people.

[00:17:41] And Jerry. I got the ABA to approve the creation of the Center for Human Rights, those of you who know the Center for Human Rights, the great work, but when it first was formed in 2001, anyway, Jerry asked me, when he told me I'd been appointed, and I remember saying to Jerry, I'm not worthy of that.

[00:17:57] And he said, not yet. So it was [00:18:00] a challenge by Jerry to do more in that regard. And at the ABA Center for Human Rights, I got to be friends with people like Bob Drinan, who had been a, I taught at Georgetown. Any of you who went to Georgetown might have studied under Bob, who was the father of the Jesuit priest, and been the representative, and a fascinating fellow.

[00:18:16] And Lou Pritchard and Walter Wright and Steve, anyway, a lot of names. And the greatest thing was, for about three years, I was on the executive board of it, and we would meet twice a year at the Supreme Court, because Ruth Bader Ginsburg was the liaison with the center. And I got to sit at the same table with her and about six other people, and we'd go over our whole agenda and the things we were recommending.

[00:18:40] And she was brilliant and wonderful, and we had dinners with her and her husband, Marty, while he was still alive, too. So that, I've been active in a number of other groups. I'm still on the board, of the Human Rights First Board of Advocates. And I've always been very interested in refugee issues.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Having grown up in Washington, frankly, and at our school, having people who are refugees. And so I used to be the lead host when we began here in Houston at Interfaith Ministries, our refugee program to bring people in, find them jobs, find them a place to live, and change their life. And those are very moving interactions.

[00:19:20] In fact. I'm going to take a little bit of an interviewer's prerogative here to hijack the interview. Beyond exhibit A? Okay. But to hijack the interview and make it all about me for just a moment. Okay. Okay so I'm going to just say where we actually met. We met the first time at an ITA lunch.

[00:19:39] Not unlike this one. And in fact, the topic of this discussion was how at the time, even though you were then General Counsel of Baker Hughes, you nevertheless accepted a limited number of arbitrator appointments. And what struck me given my background in ethics and my sense that [00:20:00] in many ways we are entrusted with something that is very much a public responsibility is let me ask you actually to tell the...

[00:20:08] Because they want to hear from you about the rest of our conversation at lunch that day, what you told me. You said my tie wasn't straight? I didn't, oh. She's very candid. Okay, so you're talking about how I did arbitrations. I did arbitrations and those of you who ever worked at Baker Botts might have known Perry Barber.

[00:20:25] Mr. Barber was the general counsel at Pennzoil. He actually signed me up to be an arbitrator. I was called up to his office and he announced this to me and I thought two things very quickly. I'm still scared of Mr. Barber and he's just fired me, I think but it turned out that wasn't what it was. He thought it'd be good to learn that you'd have a different, I'd handled litigation at the law firm I'd been with, but now I was a transaction lawyer and trying to stay a transaction lawyer for that period.

[00:20:49] And anyway, that got me on it and I got signed up with the AAA, began to take courses and would only take one case a year. But in between, I've been general [00:21:00] counsel of three big companies, and between each one of those, when I left, I would take on arbitrations, and each one of them had to wait until those arbitrations were done.

[00:21:11] And kindly they did. I had an experience this summer. I think you're getting to, I gave money to charity because I was employed. That was so interesting to me in the field where everyone earns so much. I know you've mentioned that to me before. Exactly. But I was employed and I had things I wanted to give money to and so it was a good way to do that.

[00:21:32] And I've only heard about a hundred arbitrations, which seems like a lot, but not if you've been doing it for close to 40 years. But that's because for many years I was only doing one or two of these spurts in between. being working. I just, anyway. This summer, someone, a CEO came up on their jet with another senior officer in a little cottage in Maine where I am in the summer.

[00:21:53] And because they wanted me to meet with them. And I said, yeah, I'll be back sometime in September. So they showed up in the beginning of August. [00:22:00] Said, we're coming up to see you. And spent the whole day, and they were trying to talk me into becoming a general counsel again at their organization. And I said, okay. Can you wait till March? Cause the cases I had at that time, I didn't see they're going to be resolved before March and they hired somebody else wisely. So that's good. But what struck me about those stories is really, again, in keeping, I think with some of the themes we've been talking about, that you approach the job of arbitrator really as a public service.

[00:22:30] when you're giving away the money and the seriousness with which you focus on only accepting appointments that you know you can handle without delaying. I look for document heavy cases which were unlikely to have much in person hearing time. Cause then, I, actually I love reading, if you've ever been in arbitration with me, in fact I can think of a lawyer here, I'm sure, who an associate must have worked on a presentation and cited something for a particular issue.

[00:22:56] I will read all the cases. So if you cite it for something, I'll go and read and see if [00:23:00]the citation is appropriate. And this was a three party tribunal on a very big issue. They settled it wisely, I think. But anyway, they'd cited it, and I read that, and okay, it's cited for that. That's proper. What's this case really about, though?

[00:23:11] Is it a case that's relevant to this? And I believe it was the lawyer who's here who, in the next hearing, I said the tribunal would like you to brief whether or not the so and so case is relevant for our decision on the merits of what is before the tribunal right now. And by the way, it was very much against the party who'd cited it for this other issue.

[00:23:33] So be careful when you cite a case, whether it's really for the whole issue and be sure you understand it in context. I was so struck by the stories that we actually, I had the privilege of working with you on several other projects. I invited you to be on the ICA Queen Mary Task Force on third party funding.

[00:23:51] And even though you deny having an important role on that, I remember the support you gave. And also Arbitrator Intelligence is the chairman of the [00:24:00] board who has given me endless support. Guidance and support in that project as well. So I'm going to put a pin in that. We'll come back to it if we have any time later.

[00:24:07] But for right now, I want to go back to arbitration and international arbitration. And you've told us about some of your first appointments, but how did you originally become interested in international arbitration? And what was your original kind of vision of the process? Arbitration in general I remember when I was studying engineering, you had very few electives, but I'd take electives.

[00:24:27] and economics and psychology primarily, but then we, there was, there were two courses that had touched on law and one of them had a very famous person who was a labor arbitrator as it turned out. And anyway, he mentioned arbitration and the whole concept of having the ability to appoint someone to decide your dispute who had expertise in the underlying issues.

[00:24:48] Really, I found that attractive. as something that was logical and practical. As an engineer, I like logical and practical. As a lawyer, I like logical and practical. So I had that foundation. I worked for a [00:25:00] law firm initially in Washington. I we didn't do, we did arbitrations, but I didn't participate in any arbitrations.

[00:25:05] But I did some great First Amendment cases, which were wonderful. But then was recruited and ended up in the corporate world while I was trying to do transactions. And the first corporation job I had was with El Paso Energy. We were bringing LNG to the United States. from Algeria because we didn't have enough natural gas and in this country at least, there's enough natural gas that was regulated in a way which made it economic to produce.

[00:25:29] And we had, at the three vessels that were built in France, in Dunkirk a latent defect, our experts told us. So we brought in our firm, which was Monaghan and Douault, wonderful people. Eventually, those of you who know the history of Steve, the Steve firm, it became Steve Simon, Monaghan, Douault. And then they merged with a German firm and the names would have gone on forever.

[00:25:54] But anyway so I got involved in international arbitration. We settled that case with the shipyard. And then throughout [00:26:00] my career, because it was international, we mostly had arbitration clauses, so I would put them in. I would modify them. I learned about them before I started doing arbitrations.

[00:26:09] Okay. So we're going to shift a little bit in topics and many of you probably know that Alan also In addition to being an arbitrator, he's also a teacher, or that he teaches. But what I found really fantastic is that in researching this some of the most engaging and enthusiastic feedback that I was able to collect from friends and colleagues of Alan's are with regard to his teaching activities which spans many years and many places.

[00:26:40] Before I hand it over to you, I want to underscore, because many people in the room teach as adjuncts, and in fact, you've come to my class and lectured on international arbitration, but what's really interesting to me about Alan as a teacher is that, in fact, he does not primarily teach international arbitration.

[00:26:57] Could you tell us a little bit about what you do [00:27:00] teach, where you teach and how did you get into teaching, how do you see it affecting your career kind of development overall? In 1987, I was asked by the Dean of University of Houston Law School if I would teach, co teach international business transactions.

[00:27:18] Because, when you have a full time job, what could be easier than teaching a course about business transactions? Oh, let's make it international business transactions to make it easier. But it was certainly relevant to what I was doing, and I don't know if any of you took that course in school.

[00:27:33] use the book Folsom, Gordon and Spagnolia. I'll never forget that because we looked at all the different books. Anyway, selective sections. I actually had a section on arbitration, international arbitration. I taught in that, but look for the things that were relevant to the international businesses I was in the issues that you saw, and those are the part I taught, but it was exhausting and I tried to resign and the then Dean and the Dean who was coming in both literally cornered me at breakfast.[00:28:00]

[00:28:00] didn't want to let me leave until I agreed to do something else at the law school. And I said anyway, long story short, I created a seminar called extraterritorial applications of law and I first taught in 1988 and then I developed that course and began teaching again in 1991 and taught that for nine years.

[00:28:19] And that was, there wasn't much, there weren't any case books on it at that time, and now it's an issue I think we all deal with and recognize. But it was something I needed to know anyway, and it didn't exist otherwise, so I managed to teach myself and teach a course and had great experiences.

[00:28:36] Particularly when people would send me letters later and say, your course was so wonderful, it gave me... I remember one letter from somebody in Venezuela who who wrote me a letter and said, I didn't think I was going to be a very good lawyer, but you treated me... in a way and my ideas and I felt comfortable to apply to Baker and McKenzie and now I'm here in the office in Caracas.

[00:28:55] This was a long time ago when it was probably a better situation to be in the [00:29:00]office in Caracas than it would be today. But anyway, I get letters like that and it meant a lot to me. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to actually, Alan, one of the things I learned as I was Trying to prepare for this interview is he's much too modest.

[00:29:14] You have to pry these things out of him or out of people who know him. So I do have some feedback also sorry, I'm going to embarrass you. Just a moment from Professor Chris Ramesh, who's a professor of accounting at Rice University. with whom you've taught, co taught for many years. And I thought what he said was really interesting and again resonated from, with what I know of you.

[00:29:35] He he said, and this is essentially a quote that many accomplished business executives are just tremendous speakers, but when they're done, you don't really remember anything substantive of what they said. He said, but every time Alan interacted with the students in our class, he always made the extra effort to ensure that the students were able from his...

[00:29:55] Teaching to fill in a piece of a puzzle in a much larger framework that they were developing.[00:30:00] And I thought that, certainly fits with my experience with you as well. The other thing that Ramesh added was that you always came Overprepared and had, kept him on his toes because as you said, you read all the cases including, and took that approach also to teaching.

[00:30:18] The other very interesting thing I found out in speaking with Dean Jeswald Salicuse is that you were not only up in front of the classroom teaching, but you have also been the subject of what students are studying. In what I'm going to call a role as a problem solver or a crisis manager. And what I got my hands on is, thanks to Dean Salicuse is this is the opening of a case study that was created at Stanford Law School and is still used in business schools around the country today.

[00:30:56] It is based on your, and I'm going to call it this [00:31:00] because you're always too modest to say it, your rescue of Baker Hughes that was in a really crisis condition, a critical condition when you took the helm, and I want to ask you, begging you to please not be as modest as you are when usually talk about this to tell us about that experience and how it translated into a case study that business students study.

[00:31:21] And how does that affect or how has that affected your teaching and career? The I was approached by Dave Larkin, who's a professor at Harvard, Stanford Graduate School of Business. I'm not sure even how he found out about this particular case. And I think, I'm sorry, I was trying to remember when I met Dave because I spoke at Stanford for 10 years at their Director's College, so legal issues there and other schools.

[00:31:52] And Jess Salicuse that's the thing I want to mention before I get into this. So Jess Salicuse was one of the founders of the ITA, together with Pat Murphy [00:32:00] and Bill Owen. And I had the honor of, because I was, got involved with the ITA very early of knowing all of them well, knowing Pat very well.

[00:32:08] Pat was a brilliant speaker, a brilliant teacher. I did speak, I did come and teach at his class when he was at both UT and I think U of H but just, and, help create this organization that's so great today. Sorry, I got off on that. So I was in Philadelphia. I was actually general counsel, executive vice president, general counsel, the big multinational there outside of the energy business.

[00:32:30] And anyway, I was approached to come to Baker Hughes. And one of the things I did, cause you have to do due diligence is I read online, every thing they had, what are their governance programs, et cetera, et cetera, including their marvelous program that they handled compliance with. So one of the first people I hired when I came to Baker Hughes agreed to come was a lawyer named Luis de Rota.

[00:32:50] I don't know if any of the least. is brilliant and one of the most honest and toughest guys you'll ever meet. Nicest guys, but tough. I said, Luis, I want you to come [00:33:00] run this part of international. But first I want you to be sure that the compliance program is doing all the things cause there are a lot of countries, a lot of bad countries.

[00:33:08] Anyway, long and short of it is on April. So that was 2001. I guess I heard the least just the beginning long and short is on April 26, 2007. I had the honor of standing up in Judge Miller's court when he'd just gone on the bench and standing up and saying, on behalf of Baker Hughes International, I plead guilty to three federal felonies.

[00:33:41] And that was a great success

[00:33:45] because we got, I got immunity. for all the stuff they've been doing for years, wanton, willful, knowing, paying in bribes in different countries. And I turned the evidence over to the to the government. But when I realized, when I realized, [00:34:00] when Louise came to me and said, Alan, I don't, they're not doing this stuff, and 60 days after they said, I think it's worse than they're not keeping these records.

[00:34:09] Anyway, so it evolved and eventually I went to the... the government. But not before I asked three friends. I used to speak at different events and I was saying to someone, I think, at the table how I'd go to events and as a young lawyer and you get to speak, you're really excited and you could, get to talk to the older lawyers or the more experienced lawyers.

[00:34:29] And now, you go and everybody goes there on their phone. But I was very fortunate to be in a time when I Sporkin, who had the head of enforcement and then the General Counsel of the CIA. very tough federal judge, Alan Livingston, or Alan Livingston, sorry, Alan Levenson, who was a partner at Fulbright and Jaworski in the Washington office, Norton Rose Fulbright, and head corporate fin, and Jim Doty, who was a baker and bots in Washington, ran the Washington office and been general counsel, and I went to the three of them and said I've got this mess Enron, WorldCom, [00:35:00] I went to them basically just as Enron, WorldCom, Adelphia, Tyco, etc.

[00:35:04] were showing that they were corrupt. They were disappearing. They were going bankrupt. So it was an existential threat to Baker Hughes. And in the end, with their support, and really as a buffer, if you will, to the government, saying, oh, you've got those three guys helping you. And in their individual capacity, they formed this committee.

[00:35:22] And I knew, I told the board, I said, we're going to have to do whatever they tell us. And actually, I've worked with them, so what they told the board was what I suggested. But but the government didn't know me. They didn't trust me. those three people trusted me and were expert. And I knew if we didn't do what they said, which is what I thought we should do, then the government would come after us because they would resign because they were very honorable lawyers.

[00:35:47] They would resign. And I told the board that, and that made it work well. And then we had a monitor, which I will now say on the record, which I've never said before, which I wanted us to have. I wanted [00:36:00] us to have a record, no general counsels, a monitor, no general counsels probably ever said that publicly.

[00:36:05] The reason I wanted a monitor is because then when I went to the CEO and said, we've got to spend the money to do these things, the monitor has issued the edict, that's part of the settlement. And it makes it a lot easier to do the right things and do them in time because you're, and we worked on changing the culture and it was very important to change the culture because if you don't change the culture, it just happens again.

[00:36:27] And I apologize right after this. I have to go to rice and teach our first class of the semester. Four hours. It's four hours because we teach the executive MBA. So we have these Fridays, we have these Saturdays and we teach them and we have big chunks and these are the people who companies are mostly paying for them to come and do this accelerated program because they anticipate they'll be running those companies.

[00:36:50] And we teach corporate governance. I'm really teaching about culture and about ethics. That's the key to success. You have to have a good culture. So he's going to have [00:37:00] to run really quickly after this, so if you want an autograph, I would suggest you line up. A lot of people want an autograph.

[00:37:06] People I owe money to. Can you just sign this? No, I think, we are actually, I'm going to check and see if we can... Get this problem, which I did read. It's really fascinating. He's being much too modest about structurally how he came in to really resolve the issue, which is why, of course business schools want to study it even all these years.

[00:37:26] So I do want to point out that I've mostly taught in law schools and at different universities, but, Professor Ramesh is, I call him my brother. We call each other, we just work so seamlessly and he's a great friend. And he grew up in India, but he's brilliant. He's just wonderful.

[00:37:40] Yeah he, that's a mutual admiration in society, because I have this very long email from Irmesh saying, singing your praises. I only quoted just a little bit. But I do want to stay on this idea of teaching and, because I think it really is, in many ways, how you see the way you relate to other people, not just formally in, in classes and in the classroom.[00:38:00]

[00:38:00] But that your teaching instincts have taken you to a number of other Forms of teaching and programs. So what I have here... Is a picture of you on speed is captured by C SPAN in 2008, introducing a program on the effects of the energy crisis in North America and shared investments in the U. S.,

[00:38:20] Mexico and Canada. They're essential for discovery and implementation of alternative fuel. which I thought that title could almost be a panel in this conference today, but that was 2008. And so you had your teaching instinct your sense, I think, of public service also extends to non university teaching.

[00:38:40] Could you tell us a little bit about your work with, for example, the council for foreign relations? I'm a, what they call a life member of the council of foreign relations. Sounds more like a sentence, but we have term members as well. And I chair the Houston Committee on Foreign Relations here.

[00:38:55] So those are both great organizations. That has in the background World Affairs Council. In [00:39:00] 1992 I was asked to join the board of the World Affairs Council. And it had some very nice people on the board of directors. But they weren't really helping moving along. We really had no money.

[00:39:10] We had very few members and weren't doing much. Today cause I, I basically identified people to bring into the board. And there are a number of them here today, ones I hadn't identified, so I could ask them to stand up, but I won't do that to them. But through bringing in a great board and revamping that, we now have a very robust, I think it's the public forum for foreign affairs issues in Houston that's accessible to everybody.

[00:39:37] The Baker Institute, of course, is the premier institute regarding foreign affairs and public policy in general. At any university I think in the country it's been ranked that, maybe it's worldwide for a think tank at a university. But in Houston it's very rich for foreign affairs, and so the World Affairs Council and other organizations and the big thing I wanted to do at the World Affairs Council, we had no money at the start as I mentioned, [00:40:00] and I remember saying to Linda Wiest, who was just dedicated her life to it once we brought her in an executive director, when we get enough money, I want to be able to reach out to the high schools.

[00:40:10] We need to have an outreach program for the people who are going to be, make the future, the girls and boys who are going to be the men and women and be involved in these things, make them interested, not just in being a Houstonian or Texan or somebody from the U S but involved as a world citizen. So we have a very active and that's as a Jennifer, Kevin, some of the other people I saw nod that they're on the board.

[00:40:32] No that's really still my passion to build for the future. Okay, super. We are closing in on our hour, so I want to get back to international arbitration specifically and take some of these themes that we've seen, dedication to public service, crisis management, effective crisis management doing your due diligence when it sounds like everything and ask you a few questions about what your role, how you see the role of the arbitrator in [00:41:00] managing an international dispute.

[00:41:02] And, just to help you a little bit, I'll give you some more specific questions. We can end I guess more generally. But, one really hot button topic, right now, is the role of an arbitrator when counsel are essentially behaving badly. Either, acting disruptively or outright engaged in alleged misconduct.

[00:41:20] How do you see the role of the arbitrator in, in that context, when that might occur in a case? I've only been in a little over a hundred arbitrations, so I've just never seen that behavior today, but yesterday anyway

[00:41:32] It's a challenge and it's unfortunate. I have sat as an arbitrator with a number of you here and I've always been pleased. I can't, everybody I see today, I've been pleased because you're professional in whichever side you're on. You don't adopt aggressive techniques or. delay techniques, which can be very frustrating.

[00:41:52] And except for one case in my whole career, I've never seen an arbitrator who wasn't [00:42:00] independent and unbiased. So those are the things that are important. See, if you have those fundamentals, it goes pretty easily. Otherwise you have to play your position. Your position is as the arbitrator and if you're chair as a tribunal together, what are the rules?

[00:42:17] Where is it seated? What are the facts? What are the law? And whatever the issue is and I don't think I would say to Claudia, but somebody at the ICC a couple of days ago, I was saying, early in my career, I did an unsubtrial, unadministered, non administered case, and I remember saying to myself, yeah, I'll never do that again, because you really need an administrator.

[00:42:36] And in the past five years, I've had two more unsubtrial cases which are non administered and turned out fine. And then I've had a couple other non administered cases under other rules, and the one I'm most unhappy about was a non administered case. So I've decided I'm not doing any more non administered cases, so if you have one, please don't call me.

[00:42:56] And it really helps to have the ICC or [00:43:00] other organizations there because they can anticipate problems they have. The ICC in particular has lots of mechanisms that I think make it much better. But you have to play your role. If you're the tribunal, then you have to do what's appropriate, balance the interests, move things along efficiently but effectively, make sure you get the right outcomes, make sure you give both parties the opportunity, but you have to be strong and work together as the tribunal to do the right things.

[00:43:29] And it depends on the facts. I'll say what Rusty Park, our mutual friend Rusty Park, always says, the devil's in the details. Indeed. So I like that phrase a lot. Play your position as an arbitrator. So let me ask about another hot button topic that again, I think raises questions about what that position is.

[00:43:48] Have you ever experienced either corruption? raised by one of the parties, or where the tribunal might, for example, suspect that there is corruption that they might need to address, but hasn't been [00:44:00] raised by the parties, and what do you see arbitrators role when corruption is an issue in the underlying dispute?

[00:44:08] I think that's, again, the balancing. What are the facts? What facts do you have? And, but to answer your first question, because you asked at least two. The first one was, have I seen it? there's been questions. I think the tribunal we've had about some things and they weren't necessarily relevant in terms of, and nobody raised it.

[00:44:29] We did, when I was general counsel Baker Hughes, we did have a case that involved one of the agents who, after we did our investigation, I had fired, don't, we fired all these people and sued. He wanted all the money he said he was owed and brought a lawsuit here by one of the most famous plaintiff's lawyers, but we had an arbitration clause, went to the ICC in London, and amazingly he produced his bank records, and [00:45:00] once he produced his bank records, we didn't really have to argue exactly a whole lot about, could we fire him and do and I think Charlie Brower, Judge Brower I think was one of the arbitrators on that case, so if you have the right evidence that you.

[00:45:14] It's a delicate issue. It's a delicate issue. It's especially a delicate issue. I mentioned the case where it seemed to be, hovering there, but nobody raised it. So you can only deal with the evidence that's presented. You can't assume things. But I think you have to be very sensitive to that in today's world.

[00:45:32] Because my belief is, frankly, that greed and corruption are the biggest problem we have in society in general because it drives people to do things that are dishonest in whatever level. Maybe they're not criminally charged, but the thing I teach at the business school is, the compliance, the corporate governance, our rules, many of them by law and regulation, but that's not what you have to aspire to.

[00:45:59] And that's what we [00:46:00] did at Baker Hughes after the the problems that we solve with the government, you have to be working to have something better than that. And it's not just for, that's the right thing to do as a human being. It's also the thing that makes the most sense long term for, to have a company that's successful, an organization that's successful.

[00:46:18] Nobody wants to work for a place that's crooked, unless they're there to be crooks, whether it be a government or a company. Sorry, I think I wandered from No, I think that's so great, I'm almost tempted to just stop there? Because it was such a terrific answer that, one thing I wanted to mention, I missed it when you were talking about human rights.

[00:46:35] The I think to, to me personally, the greatest benefit was becoming friends with Tom Burgundal. If you all know Tom and his wife, Peggy, and they've become lifelong friends. And, he wrote his book a lucky child, the thing his mother called him. If you haven't read the book the subtitle is Surviving Auschwitz as a young boy.

[00:46:56] He's a, he's an incredible human being, the nicest guy. And he's dedicated his life [00:47:00] to teaching. He's happy. Go lucky. You would never know, but he was an academic advisor to the center for human rights and he was an academic advisor of the ITA at one time. I know. I haven't talked to Tom in a while since he and Peggy moved to Miami.

[00:47:12] But anyway, just the people you get to meet by doing other things are. What really make a difference in life? Nothing happens except through people, notwithstanding artificial intelligence. Nothing really important is ever going to happen except through people in my estimation, again, I've wondered for every question, not at all.

[00:47:30] I had one more question, but I don't think I can even ask it because it's just such a wonderful place to draw us to a conclusion. I said to people who asked me, this was just such a wonderful fun, interesting interview to put together. I think Alan was. Again, held back on some of the praise that his colleagues and friends heap on him if you talk to them.

[00:47:50] But I have enjoyed so much as I said, putting together this interview and doing it now. So thank you for that. And again, if you want autographs, line up here. [00:48:00] Thank you all for your attention. It's just been a really nice event. And it's great to be a part of this project of preserving perspectives.

[00:48:07] Thank you.